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Old 03-13-2018, 07:01 PM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkingmymilk View Post
Feelings on SAO?

I hated the LC9s. The EC9s wasnt out when I was on my hunt but the 938 was by far the best feeling gun in the category for me.

I have a p320 for winter but admittedly rarely carry it because the 938 is so easy to conceal and SAO doesnt bother me.
I should have clarified as I meant I like the LC9s (not LC9) and the LCPII.
I did not care for either trigger on the original version of those 2 guns. That long trigger pull always bothered me. Granted im more of a beginner shooter than intermediate so practice will go a loooong way but any of those 2 guns are not guns you are going to be at the range with a ton. So what it boiled down to personally for me was for summer i wanted an easy to conceal (small and thin) and accurate gun. With limited practice comparing the original trigger versus the "sao" I was more accurate with the shorter trigger pull along with follow up shots. I quote the sao as theres debate whether its really a sao or not but thats not a discussion Im experienced enough to comment on. Anywho I know some say with an edc with a sao theres more risk of an accident but if you practice drawing and holstering your firearm its almost negligible. So Chris, short answer yes I like "soa"
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:48 AM   #1752
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Heather just picked up a vp9sk she shot her friends and loved it out of shooting the p938 and g43 and vp9sk I have the p238 which I like a lot

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Old 03-14-2018, 10:27 PM   #1753
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I had the original LC9, and though the size was great, hated the long trigger pull. I loved the size of the LCP even more, but it carried fewer bullets, and I assume with its smaller size would've been even harder to aim for me than the LC9. After shooting my LC9 and Mungea's Shield back to back, I bought a Shield after selling my LC9...
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:52 AM   #1754
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Feelings on SAO?

.

despise it on a carry gun. I'll never carry anything that requires the use of a manual safety. The high stress of a that situation almost guaranties that you'll start pulling the trigger of a gun that can't go "bang", because you neglected to hit the safety.


And I don't want to hear any of that training and muscle memory bullshit from anyone. You can not train for that level of stress. No fucking way.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:13 PM   #1755
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Thinner is the objective for me.. with a 29 waist even the shield is a little too cumbersome in the summertime to conceal


(And yes Im aware I have a small waist )
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:29 PM   #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroJockey View Post
despise it on a carry gun. I'll never carry anything that requires the use of a manual safety. The high stress of a that situation almost guaranties that you'll start pulling the trigger of a gun that can't go "bang", because you neglected to hit the safety.


And I don't want to hear any of that training and muscle memory bullshit from anyone. You can not train for that level of stress. No fucking way.
So are you saying training serves no value? Genuinely want to know, am I just wasting my time?

Edit;
Forgot to ask, do you solely despise it because of the safety or are there other aspects like the feel of the trigger length??
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:19 PM   #1757
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Originally Posted by eric351w View Post
So are you saying training serves no value? Genuinely want to know, am I just wasting my time?

Edit;
Forgot to ask, do you solely despise it because of the safety or are there other aspects like the feel of the trigger length??
No no, not at all. Training is extremely important. What I'm saying is that I have zero belief that one could "train" to 100% be sure they'll hit the manual safety in that super high stress situation. My take is that it's bad if you have to "do" something before you can pull the trigger and make it go bang. And that muscle memory doesn't exist when someone is aggressively pointing a gun at you or your wife in a dark alley. So when you have almost zero time to make the threat assessment, draw a gun, and hopefully get off a shot... Having to fumble with, and waste valuable time with, a manual safety will be the difference between neutralizing the threat, or getting stabbed 5 times.


And yes, I solely despise a SAO carry gun because of the manual safety. (not SAO in general, just as a defensive pistol) An SAO gun must be carried cocked and locked... Hammer back, safety on. That's how they work. If you're carrying a SAO hammer down, it can't go bang. If its not a cocked and locked situation (think 1911 action), then its not truely SAO. If you're carrying a striker fire, with a manual safety, for that "extra layer" of safety, then you don't trust yourself not to accidentally pull the trigger and you've got zero business carrying a gun around in public.

And don't even get me started on the fools that carry with an empty chamber. LOL
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:26 PM   #1758
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No no, not at all. Training is extremely important. What I'm saying is that I have zero belief that one could "train" to 100% be sure they'll hit the manual safety in that super high stress situation. My take is that it's bad if you have to "do" something before you can pull the trigger and make it go bang. And that muscle memory doesn't exist when someone is aggressively pointing a gun at you or your wife in a dark alley. So when you have almost zero time to make the threat assessment, draw a gun, and hopefully get off a shot... Having to fumble with, and waste valuable time with, a manual safety will be the difference between neutralizing the threat, or getting stabbed 5 times.


And yes, I solely despise a SAO carry gun because of the manual safety. (not SAO in general, just as a defensive pistol) An SAO gun must be carried cocked and locked... Hammer back, safety on. That's how they work. If you're carrying a SAO hammer down, it can't go bang. If its not a cocked and locked situation (think 1911 action), then its not truely SAO. If you're carrying a striker fire, with a manual safety, for that "extra layer" of safety, then you don't trust yourself not to accidentally pull the trigger and you've got zero business carrying a gun around in public.

And don't even get me started on the fools that carry with an empty chamber. LOL
Ahh ok that makes total sense. Yeah one thing for me i knew from the beginning is i didnt want a handgun i had to have a safety on let alone if it was a striker fire, that just seems to defeat the point.
I'll admit in the beginning I was one of those carrying with an empty chamber HOWEVER at that time i wasnt carrying for protection, i was carrying to get comfortable and acclimated to just carrying and then slowly progressed to practicing drawing and holstering. It was pretty damn nerve racking but funny at how used you get to it when you start making it a habit.

So about SOA, its so damn confusing!!! My basic understanding is that if its not a revolver or 1911 style its generally DOA or some type of SOA hybrid?? Thats where I get confused and I guess changes my response to Chris's question as Im thinking about actions on an LC9s or LCP II or are those really just basically a combo action of SOA and DOA (hybrid SOA)??
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:13 AM   #1759
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Originally Posted by eric351w View Post
So about SOA, its so damn confusing!!! My basic understanding is that if its not a revolver or 1911 style its generally DOA or some type of SOA hybrid?? Thats where I get confused and I guess changes my response to Chris's question as Im thinking about actions on an LC9s or LCP II or are those really just basically a combo action of SOA and DOA (hybrid SOA)??
Disclosure: Noel is the expert here, but I think I can clear this up for you.

Yes, it's confusing and the terminology isn't really consistent. A lot of the confusion comes from the different ways in which guns work. To keep this relatively concise I'll write a separate post about safeties associated with these styles.

It's useful to first separate handguns into two broad types, revolvers and automatic pistols.

Revolvers

Single-action (SA): This is your old-timey Wild West gun. The hammer must be manually cocked for every shot.

Double-action (DA): The "double" means there are two modes for the trigger. The default is a long, smooth trigger pull that cocks the hammer and fires the weapon. After firing, the hammer stays down and the next shot will have the same long trigger pull. However, you can manually cock the hammer, which gives you a short, lighter single-action trigger pull. This is often used for dramatic effect in the movies.

"Hammerless": A misnomer because there is a hammer, but it's enclosed and cannot be operated manually. Therefore there is but one trigger pull, the long, smooth default double-action pull.

Automatic pistols

Single-action aka single-action-only (SAO): This is your 1911 style. The trigger plays no role in cocking the pistol. Very short, crisp trigger pull. Must be carried cocked and locked in order to fire when you pull the trigger.

Double-action-only (DAO): Long, smooth trigger pull that is like a revolver: it both cocks and fires the weapon.

DA/SA aka "decocker": This is your classic Sig action. Racking the slide chambers a round and cocks the hammer. There's a thumb lever that you can then use to decock the hammer, which puts the pistol into a double-action state (long, smooth pull that cocks and fires). When you fire, the pistol stays cocked (short, single-action trigger) unless you decock it again. Note that this is the exact opposite of a double-action revolver.

The new-ish thing that's become all the rage is striker-fired pistols. Some act like a single-action but with a different approach to safety, others (Kahr) are like a DAO. More appropriate to talk about them in the context of safeties, so look for the other post.

Hope this helps to de-confuse you.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:55 AM   #1760
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Okay, safeties.

I've never been in a life-or-death situation (unless you count approaching Noel within 20 feet) but I believe that Noel has a valid point about stress and its effects. That should be the context of how you view safety measures related to firearms.

Guns that have no safety (e.g. revolvers) nevertheless do have features that contribute to safety... namely the long trigger pull needed to cock and trip the hammer. It's easier for a revolver to go off if it's cocked manually first. From hammer-down, shooter has to deliberately apply a fair bit of force to make the gun fire. A case could be made that this makes negligent discharges less likely, while still keeping the gun easy-to-use in a stress situation. I believe this is also the rationale behind the heavy (10 lb) triggers mandated for automatics in some states.

For purposes of discussion I'll divide safeties into "active" and "passive" features. Active safeties require a separate manual action to disengage. That's your typical thumb safety. Passive safeties disengage in the normal operation of the weapon, e.g. the Glock trigger safety.

Revolvers
As noted, no safety devices. Safety is provided by trigger discipline and a long, relatively heavy trigger pull.

To fire a revolver, two actions are necessary: Finger on the trigger, pull the trigger.

Automatics
This is where it gets tricky. There are several approaches.

1911 style multiple safety: Ingenious design. Because the trigger is so short and relatively light, a manual safety is arguably essential. But 1911s also have a passive grip safety; you have to actually hold the weapon to disengage it. To fire a 1911-type firearm from cocked/locked you actually have to do four things: 1) Grip the gun; 2) Disengage the thumb safety; 3) Put your finger on the trigger; 4) Pull the trigger.

A few striker-fired fired pistols (Springfield XD) also have grip safeties, plus thumb safeties, plus trigger safeties on top of that.

Long DAO trigger pull on an automatic: Same thing as firing a revolver but you can't cock it to shorten/lighten the pull. This isn't a true "safety" but as with revolvers, it may make negligent discharges less likely. Two actions required to fire: Finger on the trigger, pull the trigger.

Manual safety: This is what you typically see on some carry guns, e.g. the Shield. Many feel that if a gun has additional passive safety features it's not necessary and may even be dangerous in a stress situation if inadvertently left engaged. Three actions needed to fire if the safety is engaged: Disengage safety, finger on the trigger, pull the trigger.

Striker-fired pistols: Separating these because the safety features are distinctive. Glock changed everything with its so-called "safe action" design. (PS: Called "striker-fired" because there is no hammer. A "striker" looks like the innards of a retractable ball-point pen... a spring wrapped around the firing pin propels the pin directly, as opposed to powering a hammer that then strikes a pin as in a 1911.)

Most striker-fired pistols have two separate passive safeties. First is a striker block or "drop safety" that prevents the striker from moving if the trigger has not been pulled. Second is a trigger safety that physically prevents the trigger from moving unless your finger is on it. The act of pulling the trigger disengages the trigger safety, and at the same time moves a bar that disengages the striker block, then trips the sear to fire the gun. Pistols like this are very safe as long as your finger is off the trigger, yet super-easy to use. This is why they're so popular as carry guns. Two actions needed to fire the gun: Finger on the trigger, pull the trigger.

These pistols often have a relatively light and short trigger pull (though nowhere near as crisp as a 1911-style action). Because it's relatively easy to get the gun to fire once you put your finger on the trigger (unlike a DAO or revolver), the basics of safe handling become even more important--specifically Rule 2, FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL READY TO FIRE. All of those negligent discharges have but one thing in common: the moron put his/her finger on the trigger.

The Kahr is an interesting variant. It's a striker-fired pistol but has no trigger safety. Instead, pulling the trigger "cocks" the striker so it has a long, smooth DAO trigger pull.

So technically, most striker-fired pistols are "single action" in that they're carried cocked-and-locked, but because of the multiple-passive-safety design do not require a manual safety.

Make sense?
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